Political stuff: GOP and the religiousness

[kyrre]

There seems to be an increasing reaction towards the religious "bias" in GOP, but does anyone think it will change the party? Looking at it from the outside it looks like there's a huge base of conservative Christians, but surely there must be a lot of members who wants the conservative capitalism without the religious aspect thrown in all the time?

Since Jennings and Jonathan aren't here I assume we can keep it civil.

[timmay]

I remember as a child when JFK was running there was a really huge outcry that he would have all of us becoming Catholics. Never happened.

I think what we are seeing here is the liberal press putting this out in the open as a potential threat to religious freedom from the GOP. This is poppycock. Ain't gonna happen.

Yes there are a lot of conservative Christians in the Republican Party. Will it change the party? Parties change all the time. Back in Lincoln's time the conservative party was the Democrats. The Republicans were the Libs.

In this country I am not seeing anyone forcing religion down anyone's gullet. I know of people who have been forced to leave their home countries and settle here in the US because of there Christian beliefs. Why is it wrong to be a Christian?

All that being said you can be a conservative and not have the religious aspect to go along with it. Take what you need and leave the rest. You don't want to pray? You don't have to. No one is going to make you. In the same vein those that want to so be it.

This is a pretty good can of worms you have opened. It is not very cut and dried simple that you can get an easy answer out of it.

Here is an interesting little factoid for you. Most of the founding fathers of this once great nation were Christian Ministers and most were Free Masons. Go figure. Timmay!

[kyrre]

I know it's not an easy answer and that is why I'm asking. What I see - and what the news around the globe seem to be picking up - is that the typical "Christian" issues, such as pro-life or anti-gay-marriage seem to be getting way more attention than perhaps would be seen as natural, when economy is the "real" issue in the US these days. As a sidenote my wife talked to a guy at work who said he really was a Democrat, but he voted Republican because of the pro-life/anti-gay stance.

There's nothing wrong with being Christian. Once again, though, from an outsider's point of view, it seems there's some kind of void seeing as there's no non-religious conservative alternative in the politics. It doesn't seem like you can be a Republican voter without accepting the religious bit.

[timmay]

There is another alternative. It is called being a Libertarian. Most Libertarians are conservative voters. I am a Libertarian. I am registered as a Republican though (long story). Libertarians are very much against big government which neither of the other parties are willing to address. Thomas Jefferson viewed himself as a Libertarian. He said, "A government big enough to give you what you want is a government big enough to take everything you have got." Our politicians have forgotten they are here to serve not be served. They have forgotten the part of the Constitution about "a government for the people and by the people."

As for the so called Christian Issues getting so much press, this is the liberal press especially in this country are playing the old shell game. Trying to divert peoples attention away from things such as the economy which our present government, both parties, has done such a piss poor job with.

Now if it was all the Republicans fault the press would be foaming at the mouth about them doing such a poor job. But seeing that the Dems control most of the seats, and they have for many years, and they are the darlings of the liberal press other issues must take center stage in order for the Dems not to be looked at too closely.

Bottom line is it is our own Congress and Senate that has brought us to such a sorry state of affairs. Who put them there? We the people. Timmay!

[bubblehead]

Timmay!, "a government for the people and by the people" is not part of the Constitution. It is a phrase in the last sentence of the Gettysburg Address. The full sentence is:

It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

The bigger point is that religion and the freedom to practice religion are traditional American values.

[Mofo]

There's a lot of mythmaking which makes the subject difficult (and touchy).

However.

At it's core? Fiscal conservatives in the 60's needed to merge with a powerful voter base in order to gain power. They chose to appeal to southern christians, exploiting racial tensions and social values to gain votes. Most fiscal conservatives accept social conservativism as a necessary trade-off to accomplish their goals - they may not have shared the same social values, but as long as they got their economic aims, they didn't care. For most of the past 50 years, it's largely been lip service, sounding standard wolf whistles each election (abortion, gay marriage, women's rights, states rights, etc.) to whip up the base and bring out the vote. Post-election, socially conservative values were largely set aside by Republican politicians in favour of fiscally conservative values. Over the past 20 years, that's changed, the party has shifted farther and farther right and social conservatives have begun to gain a significant amount of actual power in the party. At present, the grass roots social conservatives seem on the verge of overwhelming the financially conservative power base (witness: the tea party movement). The dog used to wag the tail; now the tail wags the dog.

[bubblehead]

Funny how perspective skews observation.

Mofo, we see things 180 degrees out.

As I see it, the Republicans have drifted left.

The Dems have abandoned any conservative standards they once had and, yes, there once was a conservative wing to the Democratic Party. It's a very sad commentary when someone such as Liebermann is considered too conservative to have a place in today's Democratic Party.

[Mofo]

Depends on your benchmarks. Over the past 20, 30 or 40 years, it's definitely further right. (the early '00s saw a purge in the party to expel anyone deemed too far left). Over the past 100 - 150 years, yeah, it's a different story. But the very reason why the Republican party dominates the southern US shows how far they have shifted from their origins.

[kyrre]

John, so, can you say that the Replicans have drifted left on the "proper" political areas, such as economy, federal intrusion and social backup, but at the same time gained some conservativism in other areas? As Mofo said, the tea-party certainly gained momentum there, for a while (but where did they go? All quiet, anyway, it seems).

I must say, regardless of which party are in power, it seems that the USA have moved a long way away from the principles of capitalism, in that there are plenty safety nets for everyone, even the companies, and that the rich don't seem to be encouraged to re-invest their money into the system. If they keep their profits, without incentives to put the money back in the market, the whole system seems doomed.

[bubblehead]

Sept 18, 2012 20:41:43 GMT -7 Mofo said:

...But the very reason why the Republican party dominates the southern US shows how far they have shifted from their origins.

Or conversely it shows how far the Democrats have abandoned principles Southerners hold dear.

Like I said, it depends upon your perspective.

the Replicans have drifted left on the "proper" political areas, such as economy, federal intrusion and social backup, but at the same time gained some conservativism in other areas?

Kyrre, I'd argue that federal intrusion and social backup are not 'proper' political areas whether done by Republican or Democrat administrations. I do agree that both parties seem to have stopped believing in capitalism.

[timmay]

Consider it a Senor moment, John. I stand corrected. Timmay!

[raptor01]

What a eff'n joke this political system has become. It is so blatantly corrupt, they do not even try to hide it. Total illusion, smoke and mirrors, people actually think the R's & D's give a rats ass for anyone who does not make a sizable campaign contribution, keep dreaming. Divide and conquer and use televizzle and colliseums with sporting events to take folks minds off the important things in life. Yes, I am cynical but realize my place in this life and content with what I have. George Carlin said it best in the link below.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

When the Berlin Wall fell in 1989, Eastern Europe gained freedoms, look around and see what freedoms we have gained in the west since then.

[gnat]

I think I speak as one of the Christian Right. But I think you and most people see "us" , if you will, as a homogeneous, one thought group and you couldn't be farther from the truth. We are very divided on many many questions. The debate about the economy is not one of these....we don't like it. So why is the talk all about gay rights and abortion ?

Truth is is that it isn't about that at all, at least not in an over riding all encompassing way. Its not in the sermons at my church ever and we have 4500 extremely conservative members so I figure that if thats what the media thinks is going on they are wrong. But I don't think they really care because the real truth is hard to sell.

There are plenty of the "Usual Suspects" with their pet issues that get the press. And the Press "EATS IT UP". I know just as many Non Churched conservatives as I do churched so again what is the common denominator in this...its the press, the TV, the Lame Stream media.

They need an easily recognized "evil" because the real story is way too complicated for them.

When you throw the Political Conservative Christian into a Republican Convention all your going to hear is reporters asking whats your stand on the easy questions. (which have the most hate factor you know)

Q "So your against abortion?"
A "Yes and heres why...............
Q "So a woman has no rights over her own organs then?
A " The question is more complicated than a yes or a no.
"Well were out of time, back to you Chris"
" But I thought we were going to discuss the economy"
" Tomorrow...yes we'll get to that tomorrow"

So its all sound bites about the easy to get a reaction out of viewers /readers questions.

I feel that its a concerted effort by the overtly liberal media to draw the attention away from a very A-D-D viewership.

ITS ABOUT THE ECONOMY.ITS ABOUT THE ECONOMY.ITS ABOUT THE ECONOMY. And the Conservative Capitalist can't draw the interest of the crowd because the media keep showing the side issues that draw the WOW factor but are strictly a side show. The economy is tricky, hard to understand and the average Joe hasn't got a clue and your average reporter doesn't either. But he sure knows a bible thumper when he sees one. And knows just how to make him or her look like some kind of an idiot for believing the way they do, and everyone knows all Republicans are alike. Christians have traditionally been good targets. But the economy...hard to stay awake for that discussion. Read the WSJ, hear what they are screaming...it isn't pretty. And a bunch of it "is" hard to understand. Hell I don't understand it, and I'll bet not a one of you does, not really. So your Capitalist is unable to distance himself due to the media IMHO.

So to me its not hard to understand why the message "He's had 4 years to fix it and it hasn't happened and you wonder why you don't have a job?" doesn't get out LOUD and PLAINLY. The Christian Right is such an easy target to divert the minds of the voting public so the media dwells on it and Viola'.

If Obama was a Conservative Republican the media would have thrown him under the bus a long time ago. Now they have to prop him up every chance they get in every way they can because they would really have to eat crow now if they admitted that maybe that Change Thing isn't what it was advertised to be.

The media controls the message...you had better believe that

Gnat

[ww2nut]

Ding ding ding...nailed it Mofo. Embrace religious right and get their votes...it's been very effective.

Liberal media, "mainstream media, Lamestream media" = Republican (Rush Limbaugh) talking points for not Fox news. The first thing one must do to beat the other side is to try to discredit anything they have to say. This is what the folks at MSNBC and FOX news do all day long, 7days a week, 24 hours a day. It's not news, it's editorial, and the masses on both sides can't get enough. People tend to seek out the facts that support their opinions rather than letting facts shape them. It's human nature unfortunately, critical thought takes more effort than being spoon fed talking points that are parroted over and over again on TV and the net.

It frankly amazes me that with all that's going on people would select a president based on his views about abortion. These same people, once the child is born, want to be sure to take away social programs that take away assistance for single mothers, oppose health care for all, and support the death penalty. Its just bizarre hypocracy to me. Do you care about life...or just birth??

I don't find myself connecting with either side much anymore. They are all bought and paid for in today's political world by superpacs. We now have two sides fighting like it's a football game...with no winners in the end.

Shelby Foote said in the Ken Burns Civil War series that America's greatest quality was it's ability to compromise and solve problems...not so anymore. Today we have Grover Norquist types on one side and Nancy Pelosi types on the other...neither interested in solving problems...just winning, while we all lose.

It's no wonder some senior members of congress are leaving the "toxic" world of politics. It's just pathetic.

I'll end this by saying I love all you guys and we all have our opinions. I know I won't change anyone's with a forum post about mine. I do hope that people will make an effort to get un-spun facts and then make a choice...here's one good source I've found.

facethefactsusa.org/

Joe